I'm not sure where most forum members are from, to know whether countries with bill-included gratuity will skew the results. Anyway, here ya go with a poll.

It depends somewhat on how many drinks I've had and how much my math skills have suffered as a result.

Unlike Dinky, who thinks 20% is an entitles stipend, I say fuck any server who can't do the job. Having been in the bidness for over 25 years, I know that for them to at least do a competent job is not really hard. I'm an easy and polite customer, and if I don't get the same back? Fuck them!
As far as going to mgmt. to complain, most of them have their own issues and their own heads way up their own asses.
The foodservice/bar biz is full of losers.
Speaking from someone who's seen 1,000s of those employed in said industry.
Gee, why don't I go out more?

I agree ... the sense of entitlement is staggering! A tip is a way of saying, you went above and beyond the call of your job for me, thanks.

Know your job, love your job and do it better than they expect.

DG

They do only get paid $2.35/hr., but having
worked w/servers making $30-40/hr. in tips,
they can try hard all the time as far as I'm
concerned.

When I was bartending, one of
the biggest assholes to walk in
the joint gave me a $16 tip for
one beer and a pizza because I
just did my job despite his assholiness.
Made him and his buddies laugh,
kept the drinks flowin', dispensed
info.

I only ever worked in a tip-producing industry briefly, but I always cringe a little when I hear waitstaff complain about people who stiff them. Not because stiffing isn't a terrible thing: it is and people who do it ought to have their entrails lit on fire. But for every asshole who stiffs, there's another guy who tips 40% or a party who forgets that the gratuity is already included and tips you again.

If you're good at serving, you will be rewarded amply for it.

Unforunately, the same cannot be said of our poor brothers and sisters in retail, who take every bit as much abuse, but never get an extra dime for it.

Yup, I totally agree. The entitlement thing pisses me off the most. Well, that and when they automatically stick the 15-20% on the tab (in small print). That is a 'give shitty service for free' card as far as I am concerned. The fact that 20 years ago, 10% was the norm, then it became 15%, and now folks like DS say 'if you don't give 20%, then get the fuck outta the restaurant' burns me too.

I tip DAMN well for damn good service. When I see a server go above and beyond, and make my dining experience a memorable one, I will not only throw them 25-30%, but I will call the manager over there and tell them how good the server is.

But if they suck ass, screw 'em. I leave at least two or three 2 cent tips a year for the utterly abysmal.

Typical for me is 15-20 though.

I'm sorry if I came off that way. I was trying to leave for work, and typed up my response in a hurry.

In no way do I think bad servers deserve a 20% tip. I hate bad servers as much as the next person... and I can spot them a mile away. Just like any job, if you perform poorly then your compensation should reflect it.

If one gets shitty service, then by all means hold back on the tip. Of ourse the word "shitty" is very ambiguous. Joe tightass will complain endlessly about the service just so he can justify leaving a bad tip.

I'm saying that a server should not have to sit on your lap, jump through hoops. or impress you with a performace of king Lear whilst juggling absinthe spoons to receive a 20% tip.

But sitting on my lap sure helps. . .

good point.

Most of the servers I know make a TON more than people in retail, who take the exact same shit.

i used to work retail, made next to nothing, and got shit on every day. not being a fan of scat, the jobs sucked.

if a customer thought i was being an asshole, (which i never was. no joke.) they could go to my manager & try to get me fired. so since a customer couldn't take out their feelings on my tip, it wouldn't be: "oh no, i didn't get the $5 tip", it would be "oh no, i lost my job".

so say you make a minimum server wage plus tips and i make minimum state wage. who's going to make more money? the server.

who puts up with customer's bullshit? both.

I prefer European style service, where the wait staff leaves you alone unless you make eye contact with them or wave them over. Nothing is more annoying when you're trying to have a conversation with someone than an overzealous waiter who asks every 5 minutes "Is everything OK?" to try and get big tips, and also tries to push appetizers, salads, extra drinks, desserts and coffee down your throat. If I wanted any of that shit I would ASK for it. Take my order when I look ready, bring me the right order, then leave me the fuck alone unless I ask you for something, and I'll give you a 20% tip.

It's equally unacceptible for people to tip poorly because it took a long time for their food to arrive. I can't tell you how many times I've seen wait staff treated like shit because the kitchen was slow. Not cool.

yeah, me too Porkio.

i hate somebody coming over every five minutes or every other hour.

a happy medium, dammit!!

Does the asshole stiff because of poor service, or because of skinflintedness? This is important.

As for the guy tipping 40% making up for the cheapass, yes it does happen. But for the most part (I'm speaking solely from my personal experience, and from the claims of other waitstaff at my restaurants) the average tip at the end of a busy night is around 20% of gross sales.

Any server that adds a gratuity and does not explain it to the customer is guilty of stealing (in my book).

Adding a gratuity is common for larger parties, and for some "extreme" cases.

For example-> We run several 50%-70% off specials throughout the day. Many deal seekers show up, order the cheap food, drink water and then tip their little tip on the discounted price. My poor servers are running around, filling glasses with water, listening to people bitch about whatever they bitch about, and then ending up with a 7-8% tip. Their prime real estate is occupied by people lingering, drinking water, spending very little money, and tipping even less. So we have a written policy (on the menu) that discounted items are subject to a 15% gratuity. This is at the dicretion of the server.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for my personal tipping habits. They might be a bit extreme for some, I do not propose this to be a guideline for everyone. I'm in the biz, it's a show. I get attention and service and pay for it.

At a restaurant I've never been to, or never will return to, with average service (bring the food, no screw ups, no magic show).
21%-27%
At a restaurant I frequent with a noname generic server.
25%-30%
At a restaurant I frequent, with my favorite server
30%-50% (sometimes more)

The same percentages apply to bartenders. Although my minimum is usually higher than 21% if I'm paying by the round since I tip by the drink, not the price. $2-$3 for the first drink of a round, with $1-$2 added for each additional drink in the round. $5 if I'm just having one... more if the drink is given gratis.

Walk into a busy bar. Tip heavy. Walk into a busy bar, tip light or not at all. Guess which person gets the most attention...

leave it to the bartender driving the Porche to whine about the service industry not paying.

And along those lines.
I love hearing this about a 6 hour shift-
"Was it busy?"
"No, I didn't make any money, only $70."

Fuck you.

Aside from the fact that I'm not just a bartender, is there any reason a bartender shouldn't drive a porsche?

Should porsche ownership be limited to movie stars, stock brokers and atheletes?

Damn BOH folk, always pissed at the FOH.



Is my judgement askew? $70 for 6 hours is pretty shitty.

Yep.
Skewed.

I've mixed and served cocktails and beer. It is not the most highly-skilled job in the world. I know plenty of people with much more specialized skills who make little more than $10/hour.

Not to knock the trade. I'm just saying.

And, in your judgment, is it appropriate to tip a bartender less if they mix your drink poorly? I have drunk my share of horribly abused Martinis in my day (I hardly ever order them in public anymore because so few people get it right), but I still always tip my usual. Now that I think about it, that's kind of absurd. What does the Professional say?

You should get exactly what you want to the best of their ability.
At the Brew Works, they don't ask if you want your 'tini shaken or stirred, nor what ratio you want it at.

And that ain't right.

I suppose it all depends.

I gotta agree that someone working a 6 hour shift getting $70 can go both ways, but (and i am gonna catch flak for this) $70 an hour for a job that is considered (rightly so. I did it for 3 years) unskilled labor, requiring no education, no certifications, and 1-3 days on-the-job training is getting paid pretty well. And remember, that $70 is the server complaining abut a SLOW night. I made upwards of $160 a night on a good night when I did it, and midwesterners are not well-known for their tipping. I was 21 years old, had two roommates, and an 8 year old car. That goes a loooooooong way.

Now, when you go to a nice restaurant, the server and their background and training change dramatically. Add 20-30 years on them. Toss in some polish. Their clothes are harder to maintain (pressed shirts, cumberbun or vest, bow tie, nice pants), as opposed to a corporate-supplied Outback polo shirt and khaki's. They would fall under the semi-skilled catagory, because they can probably not only take your order, but give wine reco's from a list of 100+ bottles, be concious of food allergies, give a sense of flair and presentation, and go beyond being 'polite' and into 'personable', etc. BUT, since the food costs so much more, the percentage really doesn't change that much. 20% of $20 ain't a lot of money, but 20% of $2000 (I entertain a lot of clients at work) is a HELL of a lot of money to take care of 10-12 people for 2 hours.

'Zactly.

not at all.

it's just that if you make $2.35 an hour plus tips, and can afford a Porche, than tips are pretty fucking good.

no, $70 for 6 hours is not great, but like Sheepy said, I know of more highly skilled people making the same or even less.

look at the salary of teachers across the country, for one.

i have always thought it a bit fucked that a waiter who needs no secondary schooling can make more than a teacher.

but then again, how is it that a golfer who hits a little ball with a stick and walks after it for a living could make (about 3000 times) more money than a nurse who saves lives everyday.

but it really isn't about job worth. christ - paramedics, nurses, and or even the president could claim their job is the most important so they should get the most cake.

what i'm saying is that there's a lot of lesser paying jobs that are just as or more important. like retail.

fuck. i was typing my post, got sidetracked by work. after i hit send, i realized something similar was said. sorry for the repetition.

well, not REALLY.

The main problem is the sense that they
feel owed the money as soon as you sit
the fuck down.
Not all servers, but too many.
And the whole "I shouldn't have even come
in, I didn't make any money."
Really?
I could've sworn that $$ in your pocket wasn't
there when you walked in the door.
Then stood in the kitchen and talked.
And took 5 ciggy butt breaks.
And read your homework.

Semi skilled? You're talking YEARS of skill and ability.



That has to do with what job you asked for on the application. I won't get too into which jobs are paid fairly and which aren't... my galfiend is a 2nd grade teacher. She makes more in ONE NIGHT serving in a high end restaurant than she does in a WEEK as a teacher.



Of course. But if your tastes deviate from the norm, then you need to specify what you want, or be subject to receiving the "norm". People sometimes return to the bar asking for their drink to be "stronger". I damn well know what is in every cocktail I make... and let me say that my drinks are not weak! If you want a bourbon with a splash of ginger then say so. Otherwise you get the bourbon and ginger you asked for...

Martini's are a different animal. So many variations and subtleties. I feel like slapping my waitresses when they place an order to the bartender, and ask them for a "martini"... WHAT KIND AND HOW!!! Jeebus!

My dad was a paramedic for 10 years, and me being a good loving son, decided to get certified and do it for a while too.

The pay. . . scraps! I still find it to be a travesty that a paramedic does all of the hard work, the messy, bloody, stinky, vomiting, gushing, fighting, combative, heavy lifting work (as well as gets to see most of the death) and makes 10-12 bucks an hour, while the doctor gets a patched up, sedated, post-shock victim and make $250,000 a year.

If you EVER have to call a paramedic for yourself or a loved one, you treat them with EVERY bit of respect and dignity you'd treat a doctor, and you better THANK their ass for saving yours. They don't work for anything else.

Yes, they have been. I've worked my ass off for 11 years. I've crafted my abilities and clientel. I've done more with what I had than just about every person I work with.

I took opportunities as they presented themselves. I took risks, and still take risks. Would I be driving a porsche if I were in men's retail at sears... no.
Because working for an hourly wage is 50% money (What you really end up with, after wage tax and all the taxes you pay spending your money). You can never get ahead with 50% money.

BTW- Driving a porsche does not mean I'm wealthy. I'm still pretty damn low on the income bracket when it comes to national averages. I just have different priorites than most... I'm also not the ONLY PORSCHE OWNER at the forum

I am always very explicit with how I want my martini (Sapphire up, slightly dry, a little dirty, three olives), but this hasn't stopped bartenders from dumping in half a jar of olive brine, or asking me what I mean by 'dirty', or failing to chill the glass, or interpreting 'slightly dry' to mean that I don't want any Vermouth at all.

I have suffered their mistakes mostly in silence, and finally decided that it wasn't worth the pain. With the exception of very nice places that actually employ very professional bartenders (rather than pretty people or graduate students) I do not order martinis in public anymore. Which makes me wonder what those pretty people and graduate students are doing for theire money if they can't make a drink right.

right.

the applications waiters and bartenders out didn't say "you're going to get at least $20 an hour EVERY NIGHT YOU WORK HERE".

it's part of the territory. they KNEW that when they took the job.

You don't get an exact salary. You know this. It has to do with the job you asked for on the application.

DS is tipping them 30%.

i know this.

i was only busting your balls.

and just like every other post on this board, it got all fucked up.

Then drink bottled beer...

Seriously. You and I both know that just walking into a place can give an idead about what kind of drink pouring ability it's staff may or may not have.

Sometimes it's obvious the bartender has a difficult time remembering what's in a rum and coke. In such cases one is better off ordering a bottle of beer and slinking off into the corner. I don't expect a good single malt from Marry Anne's breakfast shack, nor do I expect a funky Ketel martini with rotten olives from La 'Tini bistro.

Refined tastes and palates are difficult to deal with. I try not to get into overly detailed drinks when visiting new haunts. I stick with the basics. Scotch, neat. Bottle of this, can of that.... If I see someone exhibiting the signs of a mixologist maester, then perhaps a little forray into subtly flavored beverages.

By all means, if you don't like a place, leave.

'zactly.
DS ain't driving a 2004 Carrera. I'd wager he bought his used for less than $25k. Hell, my previous boss had a Ferrari Mondial he bought used for $30k, which is less than what most new BMWs cost. The Porsche doesn't mean DS is rich, is just means he has good taste.

or you can try to help out the poor chap:

"Hey Tarbender! Two parts H, one part O!"

Don't ask about the p-car spending spree. I don't like to see it itemized.

Yes I did buy it for around $25 in 1998. But that's the tip of the iceberg... it ain't you daddies 911.

It's the bling bling

Agreed. But I think you may have missed my point: what part of getting a bottle of beer out of the cooler, popping off the lid, and setting it down in front of me is worth the dollar or two that I tip such a bartender? Mixing a good martini is indeed worth a buck or two, but if somebody can't do even that, then what am I paying for?

You want a drink right?

Lemme guess, fuel system problems...
Boss had a black '84 Targa that he paid $15k for, but spent another $15k in maintenance over the 8 years he owned it.

No, nothing really.

There was an $8k rebuild, clutch thing 2 years ago, but most of the money has been spent on upgrades.

Cars are like women... you sink money into them you'll never see again.


$2k/yr isn't too far off the bat for my maint. budget.

Could you repeat that again, DS?

Damn this swimmers ear.

sorry, all fixed. I have a stuttering problem.... too much coffee today.

You fucks don't even get me
started on my 87 Cavalier RS.
I just put $252 in it for a new
alternator.
I bet I've put over $1,000 into
it over the 3 years I've owned it.
Hell, I paid a grand for it.

don't forget the $15 you spent on curb feelers and the fake chrome wheel covers.

Maturin & I always try to tip in the 25% range for decent service. For some reason Denver is a town where the average diner doesn't tip well, so this gets us remembered. At our favorite "nice"restaurant (we go at least once a month), all the waitstaff know us so well that they come over to chat, even if we're not in their section that night. We usually request our table by server name, "can we sit in Evan's section please?" It definitely gets us good treatment, & makes the dinner even more enjoyable since there is an added dimension of attentiveness & friendliness.

Drinkslinger, maybe you can answer this: are waiters TRAINED to come up & ask you if everything is ok only when they see you take a humongous mouthful of food? I have NEVER been asked that when it was actually possible to answer!

As far as sports car maintenance goes, that's definitely the bling bling on owning a Porsche. When I had mine, I had to budget $600-$800/month for maintenance. I got to know my mechanic VERY well; if he hadn't seen me in 2 weeks, I 'd get a call at work, "is the green monster running ok?" Of course, I was also a very over-protective owner; any time the exhaust sound changed in the slightest, I was on the phone to them.

When we bought the Jag, I expected the same routine & warned Maturin this was going to be a real commitment, but surprisingly it's required very little maintenance other than the usual oil change/tune-up stuff. However, an oil change & tune up on a Jaguar is over $400, so even that is not inexpensive~!

I got your back DS ! One day when I grow up I'll get the 930, until then the 44 will do me just fine.

Lystie,
Since Ford bought Jag, the reliablity
has gone way up. At 1st, they fucked
the shwerve way up, think rectangular
headlights, but then they got smart.

That was not a Jagaur with the rectangular headlights, that was an abomination of the marque!

I'd rather have one of these, at least I know how to work on that kind of engine.

With a big hammer!