Um, no.

The forum is loading slowly, so it might be the case that links do not work.

Um, no.

I'm a Christian myself and close to the Catholic Church (though in disagreement with some of its doctrine).

And I've frequently brushed with members of some masonic lodges, enough to know they aren't Evil Incarnate.

Let's not reduce a complex issue to a couple of easy slogans, all variants of "it's all Their™ fault!".

History has seen more than enough of that.

Nice psychotic
run on sentence,
Artifux.

Nowadays they are very weak and do not care much for the success or failure of their doctrine.

And Catholic Church strenghtened itself over the last few years, moving more towards tradition and standing on the position: "no means no".

Of course, they are not fully responsible what their predecessors had done, still do not consider that murdering several millions of Mexicans or Spaniards was a bad action as long as it served their cause.

And none of them paid for the most powerful decision on EuroFuckyLand's future taken by the Grand Three in Yalta.

My position on
"no means no"-
Buy another round.

I will come as no surprise to anyone that I don't think that kind of "strengthening" really makes the Catholic Church any stronger in the longer run, quite unlike the real strengthening after the second Vatican Council, which tried to make it a Church with a real body of active participants rather than a rigorously led hierarchical structure.

There's a difference between strength and rigidity, but I don't expect Ratzinger to understand that, smart though he is.

That is what we do here.

Polish hospitality had survived-you cannot leave the hosts without being given one for the road, another one while opening the door, one for better homecoming and so on and so forth.

In fact, it is better to stay for the night, though.

Not sure what is the current situation in Belgium, here the Church is almost as strong as it was in years 1920-1938, and later prior to the end of red state.

Ratzinger is liked here, not only for his Polish transcripts but the fact that he wants to unite, and knows no compromise (bringing Traditional Mass back was a very good move with very strategical consequences).

And yes, it is a long run for all this to bear fruit.

6er sez:
I will come.

>Um, ok.
Keep it yer
pants, Waffle
Wiffer.

You Rows+
Religion...

*pick, pick, pick*

That's also what islamic integrists are saying, and they have just as much sympathy for what they're trying to do to their religion as you have from me.

The ultimate goal of the Catholic Church, I should remind you, is not to have a large power base; it's to make true Christians of us all, which is something quite different. That's why my definition of the Church's strength is, I assume, very different from yours.

Being an atheist
makes life easier.

And much
harder.

Not really. If you think believing removes all doubt and makes existential angst go away, think again. One of the leading theologians at the Leuven University agreed with me some time ago.

Except for flavours of Faith requiring you to switch off your brain. I guess absinthist might find his kind of Faith more soothing, but I don't think the track record in history for that kind of blind faith is particularly appealing.

Gotcha.

Being a Real
Live Human
sucks.

Emphasis on
Live.

Agreed.

You grasp your
straws, I'll grasp
mine.

True dat.

First, Six you mean the Church as the whole, I mean Catholic Church as a unit.

Hence, you are right that the Church (i.e. christians) are not that strong, whereas Catholic Church and Orthodox Church are on their way to be as powerful as they once were.

Soothing, in a sense, yes. I would say, easier to embrace where the enslavement of the mind may mean the freedom for the soul.

And here's
one of
the reasons
I dislike religion.

Hair splitting.

"Be cool."
"Don't fuck
others over."

That outtah
work.

I'm with Liver. I like the values of the Enlightenment. Thinking for yourself, though not soothing, is best. Assuming of course one has the capacity.

Here's what my
self thinkin' ass
has thought since
jump-

I hate your avatar,
Puller.

*pats*
Keep off me, please.

Hmmm, might be time for a new avatar. I'll think about it.


This one is an old Jekyll & Hyde take off.

That guy from that period I like the most:

"When God endowed human beings with brains, He did not intend to guarantee them."

Baron de Montesquieu

And frames. The nonseamless ones.

Didn't the pope just (yesterday?) Cecree that all other churches were wrong?

Damn, I guess I better convert.

You're already more Christian than many people who purport to "have Faith", believe me.

Not wrong, just not "full".

Well, that was about orthodox churches. The pope doesn't consider reformed churches worthy of the name "church" because they're too splintered, and decided to rename them unilaterally with the more than slightly derogatory "church communities".

If that's showing "strength", well...

I suppose he's taken a cue from the astronomy community, now that Pluto is no longer to
be called just a planet...

"Don't even fuck others over because you think they fucked you over".

"Help'em if you can, and try to think what you'd like someone else to do if you were in their shoes".

All the rest is ballast, really.

I think the Church as a worldly institution is made out of fallible humans (and yes, I do include the pope), which means they are frequently taking their eyes off the ball when they start discussing how many angels fit on a pinhead (and what the gender ratio is, and the airspeed of an unladen angel, African or European).

But it's not because they fail that they shouldn't try.

It feels kind of strange ending up defending both masonry and the Catholic Church in one single thread, believe me.

If only I weren't such a contrarian...

Depends on your definition of "best", of course. "Unfortunately", some people are naturally curious and can't help thinking for themselves (and that includes some freemasons, Christians, atheists, buddhists and whatnot).

And thus we have philosophy (and theology, for that matter).

Do not wake up Zippy!

Orthodox churches are really beautiful, and have that specific aura. If the hierarchs are too influenced by Putin if they want to survive in that wasteland, once called "Russia". The worst thing about is that it is less and less theological, spiritual, and more and more materialistic and political.

Surprisingly, Catholics are closer to Orhodoxes than Catholics to Protestants (vide Ulster mess).

Let thank God for theology, thank...who? for philosophy.

*sniff* at least Jupiter stands strong.

There are several unwritten laws in bars. One VERY important one adresses political or religious discussion.
The stance is NO!

But this is a bar with no rules. Not even the rules that would apply in another bar.

In other words: I still love you, but fuck off.

Fuck off?
*fishes an olive from his martini and throws it across the room at sixer's forehead*

My fellow Pinhead doesn't like me?! I'm so disappointed.

Orthodxy makes things easy for us doesn't it. We know what's right and wrong and trust those wiser than us for letting us know in no uncertain terms. Makes life simple for we simple types!


It works for me too Tits.

Now that you're there: how many angels are dancing on your head, and what is their gender?

Oh so many! I can't keep count and little green fairies too!

Rats.

Quite the contrary. If I did not like you, I would not be calling for your opinion. An orthodox opinion, I know.

No rats.


And I like you too, Tits--


even if nobody lese does. We're so alike!

Why ain't it
enough just
to be alive?